blake - 07 June 2006 12:04 PM

You say the “limited environment”, but I believe you mean Sealed, if I’m not mistaken.  Draft is an entirely different animal, as you can choose how highly you pick your bouncelands and signets.  I’ll agree that Sealed does have some luck to it because of the necessity of some sort of manafixing to make a consistent, competitive deck.  At the same time, ALL of the mana fixing in the common slots of every set in the block helps make up for that.  I wouldn’t call the entire limited format “less skill-intensive” as a result.  There is still some skill to deckbuilding, manabase building, etc.

AMEN.

While I do agree that getting the right mana-fixers to go with your intended colors in Sealed has a lot of luck involved, I do think that it is nowhere near the same in draft… You have 100% control over what cards you draft, and I don’t see how that has anything to do with being on the wrong end of manascrew. After all, you have the same chance of first-picking a signet/bounceland as everybody else, you just have to learn when that is the right pick, and when it’s right to choose another card over it. Being able to play with 3-5 colors is part of the skill involved these drafts… And i’m really, really, really hoping that’s why I suck so badly at RGD sealed(I did fine during CBS and 9E ).

I think I’ve done about 10 RGD drafts so far, and I have only been manascrewed out of a match ONE TIME(and all the rest i’ve won/split). Of course, I could just be a n00b getting lucky all the time, opening bomb after bomb after bounceland… Oh wait, I don’t have luck. Forgot about that…

EDIT:
Scratch that “I don’t have luck” thing… Just yesterday I finally opened a DIS dual land, after about 120+ packs… so, I guess that could count as a teeny, weeny bit of luck. Whatever…

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

Very true.  Draft certainly does reduce the problem (though I wouldn’t say that it eliminates it altogether) as you can somewhat steer yourself toward a two-color deck with only a minor splash, and you can be certain that you get a mana-fixer or two if you’re willing to pick them more highly than normal.  If anything, I think that deck construction is far more challenging in the present limited environment since you have to worry about your color combinations so much, and I really enjoy that part, but once I shuffle and have to hope that I’ll luck into drawing all three colors before my opponent gets all of his…

And in other (more on-topic) news we have this:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=42084#1008

Other than Hibernation’s End and the Snow-Covered Lands(Nice Art!), everything else looks horrible to me… Why the hell would I want a 3/3 Flying Shade(Snow-Covered Shade, if you will) for 5 mana of 3 different colors? Seriously…

I am, however, very interested in what effect Cumulative Upkeep will have on limited(drafts, mostly ), especially considering decks will usually be able to flush out splashed colors in CCC drafts… Hmmm…

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

I think Ripple is a pretty cool ability, even if it is a little random for Constructed.  In a 40 card deck where you have 2-3 Surging Flames, it can get really crazy, since each one lets you actually play the spell (thus triggering Ripple again).  Congregation at Dawn would be insane if they print a Ripple creature, and Top can let you set up Ripple effects as well.  For Online players, Ripple cards seem like they would go nicely with the Mirage Block Tutors.

I think the problem you guys have with limited is it seems like you’re playing with an outdated mindset. if you play a 2 color deck splashing a third in rav block, your deck is probably not going to be near as good as the guy who’s running a solid 4 color deck. Sealed is all about the deckbuilding choices you make. and the manabase is probably the most important aspect of that. you can build it so that your chances of getting your colors when you need them are maximized, it sounds like common sense, and the concept is, but actually doing it takes a lot of practice.

christian- if you draft a solid 2 color deck in RGD you are going to have a deck that is far inferior to pretty much everyone else’s decks.

it’s just a different mindset.

limited is about adapting to what comes your way. there is luck involved in every format.

on topic: some of the cumulative upkeep cards seem pretty strong, as long as you know when to let them go.

Kevin

“Wasn’t our plan just to get to 900 life and f***’em?”

Coldsnap Sealed: who cares
Coldsnap Draft: who cares

drawer - 14 June 2006 11:31 AM

christian- if you draft a solid 2 color deck in RGD you are going to have a deck that is far inferior to pretty much everyone else’s decks.

it’s just a different mindset.

limited is about adapting to what comes your way. there is luck involved in every format.

on topic: some of the cumulative upkeep cards seem pretty strong, as long as you know when to let them go.

Kevin

Exactly Right. In every limited format(moreso than in constructed), you need to be able to identify which decks “build themselves” or “flow very well.” RGD is no different, it just so happens that it’s a 3-Color or higher limited format. You either play 3 colors+, or you get owned by a 3 or 4 colored deck… it’s just about that simple. There’s just no way to contain a high enough power level for your deck with just 2(and sometimes 3) colors.

I have an example of what NOT to do, for those interested:

I played in a RDG draft yesterday, and these were my first 7 picks(and also what I passed to the guy on my left).

1: Last Gasp(Helix, Fangtail)
2: Hex(Sunhome Enforcer, Bathe in Light)
3: Mausoleum Turnkey(Razia’s Purification, Skynight Legionaire)
4: Woebringer Demon(Skynight Legionaire)
5: Necroplasm(Boros Swiftblade, Thundersong Trumpeter)
6: Dimir House Guard(Boros Swiftblade)
7: Spawnbroker(Thundersong Trumpeter)

...I didn’t even DIP into a second color until #7. And by then, well, there wasn’t much else to pick other than black cards. And too bad Blue-Green-Black is a horrible color combination for RGD… Needless to say, I picked up a bunch of amazing synergestic spells in Dissension, and I lucked out and split in the finals anyway, but I definately wouldn’t recommend picking 6 straight cards of the same color…

And, as for sealed, forget about it… I can play a Bomb-Tacular deck, and get killed by triple wrecking ball in T8, so don’t take any advice from me…

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

drawer - 14 June 2006 11:31 AM

I think the problem you guys have with limited is it seems like you’re playing with an outdated mindset. if you play a 2 color deck splashing a third in rav block, your deck is probably not going to be near as good as the guy who’s running a solid 4 color deck. Sealed is all about the deckbuilding choices you make. and the manabase is probably the most important aspect of that. you can build it so that your chances of getting your colors when you need them are maximized, it sounds like common sense, and the concept is, but actually doing it takes a lot of practice.

christian- if you draft a solid 2 color deck in RGD you are going to have a deck that is far inferior to pretty much everyone else’s decks.

it’s just a different mindset.

limited is about adapting to what comes your way. there is luck involved in every format.

Kevin

This is almost precisely my (and Matt’s) point.  In RGD sealed you really MUST play at least three colors in order to compete.  Unfortunately, this raises the luck factor of the game as you have more random chance involved in your color screws than you would if you were only running one or two colors.  The game will not necessarily be won by the better player or deck builder, but by whomever rips all of his colors first (be it 2, 3, or even 5).  This factor is exacerbated if you do not have enough luck to open a mana fixer.  Yes, every Magic game necessarily involves some measure of luck (and it wouldn’t be half so fun otherwise), but there comes a certain point where too much left to chance spoils things.

Yeah, I heard there’s this weird format kinda like sealed, but you actually get to choose which cards you want to be in your cardpool… I bet that’d be kinda fun, since you would be less affected by bad luck.

BTW, I updated my RGD Sealed Record. It now reads: ***Censored***
So, until I magically learn how to make double fetters, arc, and peel appear in my cardpool, I’ll just stick to trying to open 3 duals in every sealed event(wait… there’s also that “it’s fun” part… nah, definately not).

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

This is almost precisely my (and Matt’s) point.  In RGD sealed you really MUST play at least three colors in order to compete.  Unfortunately, this raises the luck factor of the game as you have more random chance involved in your color screws than you would if you were only running one or two colors.  The game will not necessarily be won by the better player or deck builder, but by whomever rips all of his colors first (be it 2, 3, or even 5).  This factor is exacerbated if you do not have enough luck to open a mana fixer.  Yes, every Magic game necessarily involves some measure of luck (and it wouldn’t be half so fun otherwise), but there comes a certain point where too much left to chance spoils things.

you have so much control over those aspects though. it’s just about building the best deck your pool has to offer. sometimes you can’t afford to splash the third red card so you go more for consistency. sometimes you don’t get enough fixers so you have to be a little more frugal with your card choices. You can blame sealed losses on luck, but I would bet that most of the time some of your card choices are off, or your mana base could be tweaked, or you didn’t mull a hand you should have mulled.

they had this entire discussion on TML, and it just seems like people are looking for an out to explain their poor performances in limited events.

if you don’t open ONE mana fixer in this block, you just forgot to open your packs. and I would call that a deckbuilding error.

it just annoys me when people say limited is luck based because it’s a format I’m generally good at.
luck is a factor, luck will always be a factor, but if you blame all your losses on luck you’re just being lazy.

yay ranting, and alliteration,

Kevin

“Wasn’t our plan just to get to 900 life and f***’em?”

Coldsnap Sealed: who cares
Coldsnap Draft: who cares

I honestly feel limited is a more skill intensive format than constructed. Maybe that’s why I suck at it, no skill here .

drawer - 14 June 2006 06:20 PM

it just annoys me when people say limited is luck based because it’s a format I’m generally good at.
luck is a factor, luck will always be a factor, but if you blame all your losses on luck you’re just being lazy.

yay ranting, and alliteration,

Kevin

well, maybe you’re just generally lucky…

But seriously, there is a WHOLE LOT more luck required in sealed than you’re leading us to believe…

You can have an awesome 4-color deck with no mana-fixing(like all the times I get bouncelands that include my color that only has 2 playable cards)...

You can have a 3 color deck with a couple of mana-fixers, but a lot of multicolored cards OR double costed cards…

You can end up having a shortage of playable creatures in your colors(especially if you don’t have the manafixing necessary to add a 4th or 5th color)...

You can have awesome creatures and then lose to not having enough removal for your opponent’s creatures(and/or not being able to fix your mana to actually include the removal spells that you actually have in your pool).

You can also have a poor enough mana curve such that you lose so much tempo that card advantage and/or card quality never matters…

And then there are the times when your cardpool just doesn’t provide you with good enough cards to do well…

In a draft, you can do these to fix most of the problems I just listed:
1) First-Pick mana fixers if necessary
2) Avoid double-costed cards in favor of slightly less-powerful, but solid single-costed cards
3) Pick up removal as early or as late as you see fit
4) Figure out when to start picking enough creatures so that your deck flows well enough to keep up with aggressive strategies
5) Pick up enough card-advantage related cards so that you don’t lose to Steamcore.dec(IOW: be able to out-shoot control decks)
6) Get the bomb rares that actually fit your deck!

I am by no means using this to defend my failures in previous sealed events(I openly admit how bad I am and make jokes about it all the time), it’s just that you’re trying to make it sound like there’s a *pinch* of luck, and that if you’re a good enough player, you can overcome bad luck every time you come across it. It’s just not that easy…

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

I would say that Kevin is probably the best technical player at Madness, and his Sealed builds have never been bad, but the increased mana color luck factor is having its way with him all day.  Kevin, nobody is saying you’re not good at limited (or Magic in general)--you are, and I love that you’ve got the guts to play strange decks and rely on your skill to carry you.  The point of this is only to demonstrate how Sealed has changed to mitigate skill and reward luck in this format, which means that those of us who like only a minimal luck factor are really looking forward to ColdSnap sealed.  Not that the better player will always lose to the luckier player in RGD--strong play will still get you to Top 8 more often than not.  Not that there’s never been luck in the past--my 3rd place PTQ finish was partially due to Matt Hoffmann having insufficient mana (which is very frustratingly similar to the RGD mana color problem).  This is not supposed to be bagging on RGD sealed--we’ve seen lots of different people making Top8 that normally don’t, which is nice (and lots of people who normally do make Top8 hanging around the bottom of the standings, which is not nice for those guys).  I’ve done fairly well both times I’ve played RGD sealed, so I’m not trying to excuse poor performances, just looking forward to something more stable.

True… It is nice to have a change in the format(different people being the better players at Sealed, etc.), and I am kinda looking forward to Coldsnap sealed, I’m tired of sucking at RAV sealed.

Ok… you think we should give this thread back to the discussion of Coldsnap now? It’s been hijacked for quite a while, lol…

---

Current Decks:
UG Aggro
Mono-Green Turbo-Allosaurus!
Mono-Red BURN

RGD Draft: 25-7-2
RGD Sealed: ***Censored***

Orb of Insight is up for Cold Snap
So we have
Elf - 2
Goblin - 6
Dragon - 2
Giant - 2
Equip - 0 Equipment - 0 (keeping it “old school” I guess for that block)
Instant - 22 (seems low?)
Draw - 13
Discard - 4
Trample - 11
Flying - 22
Counter - 66 (WOW - what’s up with this?)

just a start - lets see what else we can find